Building the Organisation from Ground 0

Rupali:

Hi. I’m Rupali and this is Matrix Moments People First, a new conversational series within the Matrix Moments umbrella where we will bring amazing entrepreneurs, founders and leaders and delve into the stories of how they built successful businesses by building amazing teams around them. My guest today doesn’t need any introduction especially in the startup ecosystem, he has the most quintessential mix of experience and ex banker, operator, VC and an entrepreneur. Welcoming Revant Bhate, Revant, thank you so much for being on the show.

Revant:

Thank you for inviting me I think on the third or fourth podcast at this part of the --

Rupali:

You know how much we love you.

Revant:

I sometimes think that I’m a guinea pig for most of the experiments that like I was a guinea pig for the banking ecosystem or as an operator or as a VC.

Rupali:

Our bar is very high if you can be a guinea pig for us. But, Revant, thank you so much, I was indeed very excited because I’ve known you, I have had the pleasure to have seen Mosaic journey from day minus 1 if I can say that. And have really seen the company grow from where it started to where it is now. And today I think I would love to understand your perspective of how you built that team. But before we go there I would love to understand what scale is Mosaic is at, would love for our viewer’s reference would love to know what are you solving for and how big is the team?

Revant:

Sure. So just a little bit about the business first what we’re trying to do. What we’re trying to do is build full stack digital health coaches for elective health problems. Now elective health by definition is a consumer discretionary choice and therefore the approach of a coach purely digital because that was where comfort was if I can be honest from the operating experience. And we’re doing multiple platforms because they have to be personalized for every segment, so there’s an elective health coach for men which is Man Matters, there’s an elective health coach for women which is Be Bodywise.

And now we have an elective health coach for parents as well which is around the entire journey of parenting for I mean you have a child, I have a child between that age group 3-12 is supposed to be a very enjoyable time but sometimes there is some anxiety that needs to be relieved as well. So today we have three platforms hopefully we’ll have 4, 5, 6 all depends on how the team sort of is excited to build out. Today the team is about 225 people full time, quite large I would say, large enough that I’m taking stress about alignment and oh, my God, what happened, why did we go so fast.

But thankfully at least we’ve been very – so we were born in Covid so it was not easy to do everything remotely and then subsequently we entered hybrid and this April is when actually everybody is back in office but we still have like three or four different offices for different locations because we’ve been a little employee first in that sense that we wanted to make sure that productivity remains high. So it’s been an interesting journey over the last few years.

Rupali:

But primarily Mumbai and Bangalore?

Revant:

Yeah, so Mumbai and Bangalore is where – I mean we were born in Covid so everyone was remote and then once we said okay, let’s come to office we had to give a few options. I think now this is what it is, I don’t think it’s going to change a lot because it’s a sizeable team in Bangalore also, almost 40-45 people. So it’s fine, I think people have figured out a way to continue to operate and culturally I think it’s going to be a little hard but I’m sure we’re a three year old business so lots to figure out yet.

Rupali:

Coming back to Mosaic, Revant, when we started working with you it was very early, there was not even a domain registered if I’m right.

Revant:

Yeah, we didn’t even know what we were actually going to do.

Rupali:

Correct. There was a broad problem you wanted to solve and there was definitely I think the only constant was there was so much of ambiguity at that point in time but because I’ve worked with so many founders I think I can zoom back and say that you still had a lot of clarity on how you wanted to org build in your mind broadly. So would love to I think get your perspective, what was your first principles that you used while building the 0-1 team for Mosaic where you yourself knew that there was so much of transitioning, so much of ad hocness build around the problem?

Revant:

So how did I build my first team in the first year, right, you have to leverage your network of people who have worked with you in the past and a lot of people I think give maybe added benefit to people who have worked in the operating side or a specific domain. Not sure of that necessarily is the case, as long as you get people to join you see ambiguity ka solve ek he hai, which is that you trust the leader and you trust that the leader will figure out stuff. So if you look at cofounder, we worked together --

Rupali:

Dhyanesh.

Revant:

-- for about 15-16 years back in our first job. You know, alma mater, Sachin who is my CRO, Geet who was my first EIR and who now runs Man Matters, Mohnish who’s our CBO they’re all IIM Kozhikode alumni who we had – we had interacted in the past. Bunch of folks from previous jobs, right, if I look at Rebel where I spent a little bit on operating or Kstart where I was running a fund it didn’t matter what people were doing in those companies or if they had prior experience but they at least trusted that Revant will figure it out. And I think that's a great way to build an early team when there is ambiguity to it.

The other thing that has to be a little common factor is people being okay with that uncertainty of where this may head in terms of their personal and professional growth as well. Where the business will go they can trust Revant, but beyond that they also need to know that this is going to be good for their personal and professional growth. And that trust is harder to build which is where again how you have operated in the past, how you have dealt with people in the past and how you've built that, I would say followership is a very strong word, but in some way get comfort to enough individuals who’ll be willing to join you in that 0-1 journey is super critical.

Rupali:

Yeah, because the opportunity cost for them is also very high, right, for them to let go of. But, yeah, it might be a strong word but I do believe the followership helps because they have to resonate with what their confidence on you.

Revant:

I think it’s also a little bit with respect to timing like one aspect that I realize is there are a lot of great folks, like for example I had called up even more people who had worked with me but they didn’t join. And if I bring in that variable as well it’s also timing of where people are in their careers. To be honest I think if I look at most of the folks there is a commonality of timing that they were either jaded with what they were doing or they were looking for something exciting but it was not coming along and sometimes when people ask you things just gel. Yeah, it’s not that I asked all the people in my network and everybody joined. The hit ration even there would have been like 20-25 percent.

But you need to have that network and your ability to at least talk to 100 to get those first 20-25.

Rupali:

But that doesn’t work now that you're building for growth, now that --?

Revant:

It still does. If I be honest it still does, but it has to work at a more at a higher order if I can say that. So for example every time I would put out something on LinkedIn would I get more applicants, yes. I still find that personal leveraging your personal network is and putting yourself out there is always going to help you in recruitment for sure.

Rupali:

It does help.

Revant:

Also at least people know what they’re ending up with, right, if you're an open book in that sense like most of our interview rounds I mean I know I don’t know if you want the public to know but Rupali hates are our interview rounds because we give a brutal truth to candidates as to how – I mean we were six days working for the first two years. And most of the candidates used to just say no at back then. It was much harder for you to help us recruit the team but it is what it is.

So if you're brutally honest about the situation I think it’s also a little refreshing for people when you're not selling unnecessarily.

Rupali:

You're also attracting the right people with the right mindset.

Revant:

Very important because what we’ve realized this misalignment of incentives is the biggest problem that ends up and startups work on delayed gratification. The number one problem to be solved for every founder is easy in the first one year because maybe you’ve raised the seed round. Everyone knows that ke dhanda tou banaye nahe hai, jo Banega wo 4-5 saal mein Banega, so by design the 0-1 stage folks come with delayed gratification in their mindset though they may not accept it. Ounhe pata bhi nahe hoga, but wo decision wase lete hai. But ab jake, so when we’re at this scale people know us and they’re like haan kuch interesting banra hai, so now a lot more people will want to join. The problem is we’re not getting enough people who’re okay with delayed gratification.

Rupali:

Lekin romanticism tou haina thoda, for that, how do you separate that romanticism with the right – somebody who’s evangelized their role with the right mindset.

Revant:

You know, it’s a little interesting. When at seed stage you tell people hey, you’ll take a pay cut, people understand. I’ll tell you why they don’t realize they’re signing up for delayed gratification but they’re sometimes is ounka mindset already ousmein hai, ke yaar seed stage hai, I understand ke busineed banahe nahe hai, tou pay cut lene padega. Today people are like hey, if you're this size you've so much money in this why are you asking me to take a pay cut, you can afford to pay me. In some ways it’s important to separate out and let people understand whether they’re okay with delayed gratification or not.

I think we have a very democratic distribution of stock options for folks in the company. Because delayed gratification just doesn’t work by saying that ai paise kaam milega, it’s also that future is brighter. So you need to sort of work for this. It’s still hard I would say because today the market is spoiled for options and I think it’s a good thing that India has so many employment opportunities where people can earn money that they never thought they would or their parents never thought they would and they can live a great lifestyle. I mean look at the stock option buybacks that are happening right now and the kind of – and everybody is cribbing about real estate prices in Bangalore but --

Rupali:

Amazing use cases. Correct.

Revant:

It’s a good thing that people are earning money, it’s a good thing that they’ve options but I think the founders whether at 0-1, 1-10 and even at sometimes 10-20 stages need to understand that if you want to generate super normal profits, if you want to go public, you want to give great shareholder. Today suddenly ROSI is a big name that's being thrown, Apko cost control mein rakhne padenge, so you will have to make sure that whoever is joining you is aligned to the fact that some companies which have 25 percent EBITDA can afford to pay you those but startups cannot.

Even in the 1-10 stage or 10-100 irrespective of the fact that they’ll raise money and alignment still needs that founder is still working on delayed gratification. Till the company goes IPO and is developing and giving 30 percent ROSI year on year founder is still sitting on the risk. VC is sitting on risk, founder is sitting on risk, so employees have to take certain risks which is I think the conversation that doesn’t happen enough.

Rupali:

Tell me, because it’s been 3-3 5 years, 0-1 to early 1-10 stage, and you had use cases to refer to as an operator, as a VC. You're a very successful angel investor so there is your scene.

Revant:

Successful is a very dangerous word to use in our ecosystem.

Rupali:

You're a prolifically busy angel investor, however galtiyaan tou hui hogi during the org building, some of the learnings, Revant, from your own journey of building.

Revant:

I think goes back to the same statement I just made, I think wherever I could not align on the fact that building startups is very hard. So one aspect is the delayed gratification of how wealth gets created, salary versus ESOPs and stuff like that. I think that’s the easy answer, the harder thing is the fact that you don’t have as many resources as you would have had in a larger organization.

So I think the biggest struggle or the most common mistakes I have found is if I reflect on individuals who didn’t acknowledge or I failed at making them understand how hard building this is. Lesser resources not just for each other, tumne leliya hai, chalo main mehnat karlunga, main pay cut pe aajounga, but beyond that you’re not working with the same quality of people. I’m not saying I have bad quality people, I have a great team. But it’s not – you can't expect the same level of team that maybe a top tier consulting firm has or in terms of just raw IQ, push, energy etc because they’re getting paid five times the money on different reasons.

So how you work with constraints on people, on time, people are paid lesser overall so maybe the ownership or the energy levels, I don’t know, there are different reasons. So it’s just harder to execute in a startup, lesser resources more constraints. I don’t think people are able to align with that till they enter that situation. So if I can summarize people who have done 10-100 journeys and large organizations are epitome of 10-100 journey even if they fell they can do 1-10 or even if they’re really excited to do 0-1 nothing prepares them as much for that till the rubber hits the road.

And if you're a founder let’s say you’ve worked in a 10-100 company and you're saying I want to become a founder which is a 0-1 journey I think mentally you prepare for the pain because and then there is dissonance. So I think one mistake I would say is I think I’ve got a few 10-100 folks even for the 1-10 journey which did not --

Rupali:

You thought they would do it but the reality was --

Revant:

It was just hard. And it’s not just their fault, I think it’s still my fault because I didn’t prepare them mentally enough for it. Second, even if you’ve not prepared mentally you have to invest time, you have to be patient. Outna patient 1-10 journey mein nahe tha mere paas, honestly if you have to scale now.

Rupali:

They have to transition, right?

Revant:

I have to transition to become a good coach. I think I’m still learning that and I think it’s a super hard journey. And the simplest thing to understand but the hardest thing to do it being a coach is patience and for a 0-1 founder and a CEO to transition 1-10 I hate the fact that we’re slowing down. Because as a CEO I want the speed to continue and that emotional dichotomy is a little hard to traverse.

Rupali:

But interesting problems to solve.

Revant:

Yeah, yeah, of course. I mean I’m enjoying the fact that this is a good learning for me. Post the mistakes, dekho end mein wo haath jalana he padta hai, now I’m learning that patience. Only when you lose some rockstars who I thought would have done better if I had been patient with them I do realize that, no, I should have been more patient and given them more time.

Rupali:

But is it this reason of zooming in and thinking and introspecting that I know that you’ve also taken the chief people officer mandate within Mosaic.

Revant:

Yeah. So that was one learning I had that I have done finance, I’ve done marketing. Even before I started this business I’ve been CXO in every other area. I’ve done product, engineering tou aata  nahe hai, tou chhodd do, demag he maat lagou, that's why I luckily got and he’s taken that matter I have some peace there. I actually never run large teams, I’m always a 0-1 guy, banking 0-1, even within Rebel whatever operating experience always 0-1 experiences. Kstart was a 0-1, I was competing with MPI saying that don’t take Matrix term sheet take my term sheet.

This is the first time I’m doing 1-10 and if you have to invest in people fundamentally I realized that I should also think like a CHRO apart from a CEO. So what if I take that role also then I’ll – it’s almost like cheating your mind to say that don’t think like a CEO think like a CHO. So kuch kuch asa hacks karne padte hain, or asa mujhe lagra hain ke at least I’m improving in people management after taking on that role because I was a little – if you're thinking like a CEO think like a CEO. You need to empathize with the functional head’s responsibility as well and we have a great person whose leading HR today but I’ve requested her that let me be the CHRO for some time so I can train my mind how to do this better.

Rupali:

But great use case for a lot of founders because generally this aspect gets a bit ignored, that's the reality, business heads dhanda banana hain,  becomes important which should be the case.

Revant:

We’re too ruthless in our --

Rupali:

Which should be the case but it should not be either or, it shouldn’t be only business.

Revant:

It’s a hard thing to do both.

Rupali:

I agree but it’s a great example and I see this happening a lot in a lot of experienced founders now who are taking people mandate as a key charter within their KPIs. Tell me more about – you run a very interesting program within Mosaic Wellness. The Entrepreneur in Residence program I think you’ve been doing it for the last 2-3 years.

Revant:

Since we started.

Rupali:

Tell us more because a lot of times people confuse it with chief of staff program as..

Revant:

I’ll tell you a very simple Math that people sometimes get confused ke apne isko.. that simple thing. If you are a absolute fresher undergraduate like this year we’re recording this in 2023 so 2023 if you’ve passed out and you have no clue what to do and you have zero experience on the CV, we’ve called something called the fellowship program. One year program like VCs have analyst programs for two years we have a one year fellowship program come experience multiple functions decide what you want to do because if I reflect back to when I was 21 I was absolute clueless we just went and did something and everyone cribs, arey ye kya boring kaam hai, boss achcha nahe hai. Ap aajou crib karlo, I’m sure you will not find a lot of interesting stuff and at the end of the program if you don’t like product, marketing, tou bhai kuch aur karlo.

There is a program manager we used to call it chief of staff but then there were too many chief of staffs in the company so we said, okay, now let’s call it program manager which is 1-4 years’ experience pre MBA. Again so you’ve done a couple of things but tumhe explore all cases and then there is the post MBA or the four year’s plus experience which is the EIR program. All three are generalist programs where people want to explore their passions, that is the reality.

Not everybody can become an entrepreneur but everyone wants to test the hypothesis that do I want to become an entrepreneur, can I think like an entrepreneur, can I get something. Ye aara than a Twitter pe “work doesn’t feel like work, when you’re having fun. So people are looking for that and I realize that everybody is looking for it. But they don’t know how to get there so each of these programs helps people to get there. The only constant is these are generalist programs, if an engineer comes and says that I have a passion for business and I want to explore that, it’s rare, we’ve not found those. Generally these are graduates or post MBA folks who are like ke humain laga tha ke hamara career ies direction mein jaiga, but either the roll of the dice was not as per our liking, placements are sometimes it’s anybody’s guess how they go.

Rupali:

But I’ve met some of those, very high quality of folks.

Revant:

That's the thing, if I look back I’ll be very honest in some ways it’s a reflection of how my career has gone. People took bets on me, I passed out in a recession, it was a great institute but the recession was recession so people get screwed. There’s actually a Harvard document that I’ll send it to you later, people who pass out in a recession forever in their entire lives they’re always behind the folks who passed out in a boom time.

Rupali:

You're 2009, right?

Revant:

But people took bet on me, right, I got a first job and then somebody called me and said come do this. Somebody referred me to and said why don’t you do this. It’s always been someone looking out for me in that sense. And I think we give too much – maybe it was easy for me to reflect on this, most people plan their moves. I never planned any move and if I look back then all the experiences I have gained has been on somebody else’s money, somebody else’s time, somebody else investing their time and teaching me, allowing me to make mistakes.

And I keep wondering then why is there not such things more. And of course I joined Rebel as an EIR and all the operating experience and I burnt enough money of the top VCs of this country to make those mistakes and learn. And all of that was allowed and you have to think that ke ye opportunities kahaan milrai hai, so it’s a rare combination that worked. How do I programmatize that if possible. Now, will we be successful, I don’t know. Do all EIRs work, no. Do all program managers do well, no. Do all fellows who join us do well, no. But it’s an acceptable risk like how VCs invest and say that these portfolio companies, but sab thodi. But powerlaw har jagha hota hai.

Actually this is the most interesting learning I’ve had in life that and it’s not that I’m very old, I have 20 more years hopefully. Power law exists even in people, you will find 2 or 3 absolute rock stars who’ll give you a 20x, 30x return nobody thinks of return in that sense. But if you actually map out what you’ve invested in them and what return they give you to the company, to the fund, whatever it is there’s an absolute power law in people as well. And this is something that no one wants to acknowledge because sabko lagta hai ke meri salary bhi.. isne asa kya kiya?. You see the real stand outs but those people are usually following the power law. Yes, some people get lucky, right time, right place, but in my experience you have to keep investing.

Rupali:

You have to invest.

Revant:

You have to invest and yes, you will get a little frustrated, little bit of the patience coming in from the CHRO but when you start seeing one or two really stand out and take up and build PNLs to the next level it’s worth it.

Rupali:

But I think at least not that I’m having this conversation and that's what I’m seeing I think what really is heartening with these mentoring coaching that you’ve done a lot of these great folks that you have trained, invested, when they want to explore something out you’ve been the biggest cheerleader evangelist for them in saying that – and you’ve introduced them to me which I’ve further introduced to other people and they’re doing amazingly well in other companies. So, yeah, it takes a lot to invest on them.

Revant:

Difference in the VC power law and this power law is you're not going to make – it’s not very clear if you're going to make profits off that person but that's fine. I think at least it’s far more enjoyable, again if I look back to people who invested in me I don’t think they’ve necessarily got any financial benefit after I left the firm. One, law of compounding does help, so whatever good work I did would have helped them for the next 3-4 more years even after I left. But after that too then the next team would have taken over.

So, yes, that helped but I think in the end we’re human beings, we’re not robots, so there has to be something to enjoy in life and if you can develop 50-100 max 200 relationships that you can invest in that's what we do. If you have friends, you have family, you invest in relationships. I think we’re all getting a little lonelier and in the end work place does define either friends, hopefully not family, but yeah, nowadays families also start at workplace. But in that sense it’s good to invest in people and then help them succeed.

Rupali:

I’m not complaining, you’ve introduced me to some amazing people and the multiplier effect comes into play.

Revant:

As long as you don’t come back and compete with me.

Rupali:

That I can't assure.

Revant:

No, no, it’s happened also but it happens. People are ambitious so but it’s good to see ambition taking fruit and in some ways or form I think it’s an interesting cycle. If you’ve seen the full cycle this certain I don’t know how to convey it but there’s a gratification in seeing people succeed and it’s very hard to quantify that because it’s not making money.

Rupali:

That means you're already transitioning like a coach by the way if you feel that genuinely.

Revant:

Maybe.

Rupali:

I have now a couple of rapid fires for you.

Revant:

Okay.

Rupali:

Your leadership style?

Revant:

Aggressive.

Rupali:

Because you’ve done work from home and now opening up work from home versus work from office?

Revant:

Work from office.

Rupali:

Non-negotiable when you hire?

Revant:

Hunger.

Rupali:

Why is it called Mosaic Wellness?

Revant:

So it’s a complicated word but Mosaic is essentially an intricate pattern, a design, it’s a very intricate pattern and everything needs to come together for it to look beautiful. So the business is actually very complex, it may sound simple but a lot of things have to come together and align perfectly to get the beauty in the end.

Rupali:

Wow. Who would have thought this is the reason. The most overrated thing in startup?

Revant:

It’s a very hard one.

Rupali:

There are so many.

Revant:

No, actually I find lot of stuff about startup very intriguing and I’m not sure there’s something overrated. Valuation, that's the simplest answer to that actually.

Rupali:

Got it. This has been amazing. Revant, thank you so much. You know, I look back to the journey of Mosaic and believe me I know there has been a lot of learning for you. You said I’ve learnt this but at least as a partner in terms of introducing you to people and all I think one thing that was constant from day 1 was the clarity be it functional, be it intrinsic that you wanted to see in people, in the team that you built be it the 0-1, the 1-10 and I can only see this growing manifold. So all the best as you build and I’ll look forward to continue working with you.

Revant:

Thank you. Please do keep referring us to great folks as you’ve always done and we’ll try to make our interview process a little simpler.

Rupali:

But this has been a complete pleasure and all the best as you take Mosaic Wellness to the next level of success. Thank you so much.

Revant:

Thank you.