Nithin Kamath unplugged

In today's episode, we have Nithin Kamath the founder and CEO of Zerodha, India’s largest tech-broking discount firm as well as Vikram Vaidyanathan, Managing Director at Matrix Partners India. This is Nithin's second podcast with us and in an unplugged and candid conversation with Vikram.

Salonie: Hi and welcome to Matrix Moments, this is Salonie and on today's episode, we have Nithin Kamath the founder and CEO of Zerodha, India’s largest tech-broking discount firm as well as Vikram Vaidyanathan, Managing Director at Matrix Partners India. This is Nithin's second podcast with us and in an unplugged and completely candid conversation with Vikram, they cover Zerodha’s recent growth and success, why they continue to be a bootstrapped company, and have stayed away from external funding. The burgeoning IPO landscape in India, as well as rain matter foundation, Zerodha is not for profits that focused on climate change. They cover all of this and more Tune-in.

Vikram:

Hi, everyone, welcome to another episode of our Matrix podcast. My guest needs no introduction and he’s a very familiar face for most of you. But, welcome, Nithin. Nithin Kamath, the co-founder of Zerodha, bootstrapped and celebrated by everyone and is the largest platform across all brokerages. Nithin, thanks for doing it. And disclaimers first, Nithin and I are friends, know each other for a while and we’re co-investors in multiple companies. He’s also involved with a couple of nonprofits that I’m involved in. So we have lots of different connects and to be clear I called Nithin about the most famous board minutes in a while. And I was irritated by the response that he was getting online as well as the fact that he had to justify it with his own response. So I was irritated about everything so I called him, and that’s why we’re doing this podcast. So, Nithin, thank you for doing this.

Nithin:

Thanks, Vikram, for having me.

Vikram:

So let’s get into it. I think this was probably the most famous board minutes like I said in a while where you guys got approval to potentially pay yourself a 100 crores. And let me just state a position on where I am. You guys are bootstrapped which means that you made no contract with other shareholders and investors like myself to unlock value through equity. And now you’ve created a lot of value through profits by serving your customers as well as your employees really well which I know is very close to your heart. And you’ve done all of that but now there’s value in profits, question is how do you unlock that value and you’ve unlocked that value through salary which I think is completely your prerogative and that’s the way lot of people have done it. And so I just think that this conversation itself is unnecessary. But since it’s out there we should talk about it at least where I ambut I’m surprised you chose the most tax inefficient way to extract value through salary. So talk me through some of the choices.

Nithin:

Firstly, I didn’t know that people are tracking these things. So I know we’ll be more careful going forward because firstly it’s a threshold I mean this is not like something that we’re taking out. So it’s just that we don’t really have fixed needs of liquidity as in I think we’ve all kind of -- you know, we’re at a point where all our needs are taken care of.

So usually we take liquidity out when there are opportunities to invest in something outside the business be it for profit, be it for nonprofit. So salary that way is a decent choice because you can then -- you have the flexibility to take it out as and when required. I mean you can potentially do a buyback, a buyback is in terms of taxation is maybe now like a percentage point lesser than salary but with buyback, you can’t just do buyback as and when, it’s not a very optimal way to do it. You can setup structures which a lot of promoters do especially in companies where you don’t have external investors you can easily create three or four partnerships which bill consultancy fees to the main company and there are companies who do it and you can take it out paying much lesser taxes than what now we end up potentially paying because we end up for any salary that we take we end up paying 43-44 percent. So almost half of it goes away as taxes. And so even if you want to do good with the money as in if you want to give it to a nonprofit you’re actually for every hundred bucks you’re just getting 54 bucks to give away.

But as an ideology as in everyone within the business we’ve always thought about taxes as a way of giving back. So we’ve never, you know, if you look at our financials right from first year of the business we’re always the first to file income tax. There is nothing done like -- you know, a lot of businesses wait till the last day, due date to file etcetra because they’re spending a lot of time tax planning etcetra. So we’ve done none of that and we’re always like one of the first companies to file taxes. I mean it’s so funny that I think for the last two, three years we’ve been one of the highest paying income tax guys around our ward. There are people I know who wear a Richard Mille who pay like 3 lakh, 4 lakh rupees in taxes and I’m like, dude, what the hell, what’s going on. But I also understand why there was probably angst wherever it was because I think in a world where we are in India where there are so many people below poverty line this whole thing it almost sounds very ugly as in this whole concentration of wealth and someone being able to take so much wealth out in terms of salaries. You know, it’s a little ugly in the way it sounds and if I knew that there’ll be so much coverage on this, if I could have even anticipated even to this point we wouldn’t have done it.

Vikram:

I know we all have different views which are more capitalist but I truly don’t think you should be apologetic at all about it. I think you’ve always done things differently and being bootstrapped not taking any money from everyone and the way you’ve built the company and here again you’re making a choice which is different from everyone else which is to take it in salary. You could have just made the same money by selling a small portion in your company, it would have been more tax-efficientand I think people would have just said yeah, yeah, that’s ok to sell some shares in the company. And I just think that I don’t think you should be apologetic about it around some of this.

Let’s talk a little bit about just unlocking value and you and I have had different conversations for a long time as investors and maybe I was the first one to come calling to invest and now just you don’t need external money, you’ve made a big choice not to take external investors because you think that it affects the way you would serve your employees and your customers. First, talk a little bit about that and second, you know, does this incident make you rethink some of it.

Nithin:

No, the thing is I in my previous avatar used to manage people’s money and so when I used to be a sub-broker I used to manage people’s portfolios and I hated the obligation money brought on the table. So I think the whole genesis of not taking people’s money starts there as in so firstly I don’t like that obligation because I know that once Zerodha would take someone’s money now we’re obligated to get their money to grow fast, right, as in you have to give return on the capital invested. And I know that in our business like, you know, I’ve said this before, which is what is right for the investor is hardly ever right for the customer. And what sets us apart as a business is that we’ve never done something that is not right for the customer.

I mean we could have easily built our lending business by now, we could have easily built our margin funding business by now, we could send stock tips or research reports to trigger people to do more trades or we could like how some of the large brokers in the US do, right, every time you trade now have this confetti, just create all those things which can get people to trade more or generate more revenue for the business. But we know that that’s not good for the customer and so, yeah, there are two reasons why we made this choice. One is firstly, I mean to begin with, thanks to K and our tech team we know that we have some distance on the product because now these guys are special and they’ve built a product that helps us stay ahead of the competition because if the products were commoditized, if all our competition was offering something which is extremely similar then usually the ones who’ll spend more will -- who have deeper pockets will win that fight. So for us, it starts there, at saying that as long as the product has some distance we know that we don’t really need the money and to build a good product you don’t really need money. I mean you really need money to go acquire customers. And you know that if your product can be ahead of your competition if you’re doing what’s right for the customer. And that is very tough to do if you have investors on board. And so I mean all of these things together --

Vikram:

And you know, my answer to that has always been you have to get the right investors. But I understand where you’re coming from but food for thought is that this is probably a better way to unlock more value long-term for your employees and so on. And potentially also you put a higher bar on governance and so on for your customers but I know you’ve thought about all of that. So I’m going to leave it at that but suffice to say if you ever decide to change your mind there is already a long list of investors outside your door and I think there’ll be an even longer list if you change your mind.

Nithin:

Like I said I mean if there was a need for money, if money could help a business grow faster we would have raised money.

Vikram:

No, I understand.

Nithin:

Like you said, will this incident somehow make us change our mind on this, absolutely not. I mean, this is there is a lot of blood and sweat that’s gone behind this so I don’t think --

Vikram:

I know you’ve thought this through and I admire the courage of conviction on sticking with your thought process. The one thing I want to clarify is just salaries for founders because we’re on multiple investments and so on and there’s a -- we’ll share a link to the podcast from my partner Avnish where he’s actually benchmarked salaries for founders at different stages and so one.

And I think the difference between a venture capital funded company is that there is a explicit contract between us as investors as well as founders that we’re going to unlock value through our equity together and a lot of our founders have made as much or more money than is being talked about right now through equity. But because you’ve actually said we’re going to partner together and we’re going to unlock value through equity you often find that salaries are not as big in venture capital funded companies and that’s the way that equation in that world works. I just wanted to clarify that.

Moving to another topic which is the IPOs that are coming and it’s obviously a big moment for the startup ecosystem because it completes the cycle of companies getting founded by founders, getting investors on board but now really becoming institutions that are going public. So couple of questions for you or maybe it’s what advice you have for companies that are going public. First on sizing, and some of these IPOs are going to be amongst the largest IPOs ever in India and it’s not in the tech space. So it’s a new type of company which is a tech enabled company in some ways or a tech-first company and you’re suddenly going to a retail investor in India with the largest IPO. How do you see that sort of working out and what advice would you have on sizing?

Nithin:

If you actually look at some of these recent IPOs, right, the retail portion of it hasn’t really been the most significant as in the retail has really been maybe 10-15 percent of the entire IPO as in most of the money has come from larger institutional and HNI kind of a crowd. And HNI who are in it to maybe make the pop on listing and but then it eventually retail ends up holding it because usually these IPOs are marketed well. So even if the allotment doesn’t really happen in the IPO people end up buying it in the secondary market after listing.

Now about the sizing, the thing is I personally don’t know why stock markets arewhere they’re at right now. I mean in terms of we’re at all-time highs and there seems to be like a dichotomy. But one of the reasons for that is that there is a liquidity rush as in so there is a lot of liquidity out there, as in right from retail investors to institutionals that you already know about. So I’m guessing if these folks are coming with such large IPOs they’ve done the math in the sense they know that there is demand for -- I mean if marketed well there is demand. But the only problem though is that like which I have -- I mean this is really good for our business, right, we get to now go sell. I mean in the sense millennials in India will get to invest in products that consume which has not happened historically in India. So our whole bet here is that if these companies come and list the markets will expand. Like the way in the US, right, the FANGs have just expanded the market significantly. So that is exciting but what is not is that lot of folks look at IPOs as an exit, almost.

I mean every investor, every term sheet has this whole seven-year IPO exit in clauses. So it’s almost celebrated as if we’ve arrived in life but really for a founder I think it’s a beginning and not really the end. Because you’re now obligated to the most people who can’t really take a risk because all your venture capitalists and private equity guys I mean all of us are high-risk kind of guys, I mean, we can afford to take risk. So I think the problem with IPOs today is that they’re juiced out as in by the time there is --

Vikram:

So let’s double click on that. And the question is on IPOs pricing; so we address some sizing questions. How much money would you leave on the table and we were doing some analysis on mid-market IPOs and the jury is quite out and I was surprised. I expected to see all mid-market IPOs trading way above their listing. I was surprised that most were trading way below their listing, even companies that I actually hold in my portfolio which have done well for me but they’re actually below where they listed. So how should startup founders think about pricing?

Nithin:

I think in India the public market investors I don’t think still understand value growth. I mean I think Indian public market investors are still looking at price to earnings and stuff like that. So it’s very tough for Indian markets for you to have whatever IPOs who don’t yet have profits and who are valued based on growth to get like a similar kind of valuation in the private market they get in the public market.

So I think founders have to be cognizant of that and also not price their IPOs to perfection as in because today when IPOs come out it’s almost priced to perfection and that’s a problem. And if you don’t end up growing as fast as you can you’ll end up losing money. And the problem with IPOs is that if you have three or four large IPOs that don’t do well or they go below the issue price you just -- we have an opportunity of this large retail investor market in India who can potentially move away from assets which don’t contribute back to the economy like gold or fixed deposits to actually backing entrepreneurs. But if you lose money for them you’re going to lose that whole category of customers and I think for India long term to grow into a super economic kind of power you need Indians to put money behind Indian entrepreneurs because today all the value is really getting created for people sitting outside India and I think Indian founders should be cognizant of this.

I think like how I feel obligated to our customer I think every founder should be obligated to retail investors as well, so I think you need to leave as much value as possible at IPO and I think this whole Narayana Murthy’s conversation around this as in about how to make money you need to make sureif you can make enough for retail investors.

Vikram:

That’s well said and I’m just going to recap -one, on sizing, you’re not as worried just because of the liquidity that you see in the market and the fact that institutional investors, I agree with you, have been looking to invest in these companies for a while and they haven’t had an opportunity to invest in these companies so I think there’s enough institutional interest which should actually take care of the IPO sizing. And it’s a great point around pricing and especially of the early IPOs that they need to be successful and they need to have the cycle of Indian investors backing Indian entrepreneurs. I thought that statement was very well said and I think both of us are wishing luck to all of our friends who are going public and I’m hoping all of these IPOs do well.

Nithin:

Yeah. And I think at least the last few IPOs we were the biggest retail portion of the IPO so I mean I’m super excited for some of these new companies about to list now.

Vikram:

Switching gears on what’s happening at Zerodha and I know you’ve -- I think you shut down one of your offices and starting to really embrace remote work and distributed workforce. Talk a little bit about some of those choices and I’ll talk about some of my concerns.

Nithin:

Yeah. So we’ve been doing polls and asking people about what they feel about work from home etcetera. We’re an 1100 member team and out of which I doubt if the 100 core member team which includes tech and some of the core operations or processes I doubt if they can really work from home permanently. But the rest of the 900 which is our sales, our support, our accounts, all of these teams can potentially work from home and we’ve announced already so we’ve already asked everyone to say that whoever wants to work from home permanently just plan your moves and one of the triggers for this was also that now that with Rainmatter climate we’re giving back.

The more you kind of look at it the more you realize I think the big problem for India is the fact that our cities are choking. I think we need to get -- you know, you need to somehow have these economies of smaller towns and cities revived. And businesses like us if you have an opportunity to somehow enable that I think we should do it and so, yes, we’ve said these 900 plus people can completely permanently work from home. We have within the business you know, built a bunch of these tools to share knowledge and interact and all of that, it seems to be working well.

The other thing what has happened for us with this whole work from home now as a strategy is that for us for the support team where we need folks with a background of stock marketsand access to that kind of talent in Bangalore is tougher. For example today we can hire people from Jaipur, from Ahmedabad, from Calcutta, you know, where folks who understand what is futures and options, who understand what is -- because in Bangalore our strategy with our support team was to hire people, freshers, and then try to train them on the markets. And we used to spend a lot of time and effort for that and it was very tough to access that kind of talent in Bangalore. Now this whole remote work from home --

Vikram:

Let me pause you there and I remember from our last conversation which was a public podcast I remember you telling me the story of that every single person who joins Zerodha has to start at customer service because you want them to be connected with the customer but also learn how Zerodha treats their customers. How do you do that with this distributed workforce where everybody is sitting at their home, how do they learn from others, how do they learn what is the Zerodha way?

Nithin:

Like I said so we’ve instances of discourse for this whole knowledge sharing thing that it’s become really, really active over the last one year. So I spend a lot of my time and Kailashalso which is constantly kind of putting it out there forwhat we stand for a business. The other thing is that we don’t hire too much. I think this whole work-from-home strategy works okay as long as you’re not always in this rush to hire people. We don’t have to hire too much because we don’t have too many people leaving us. Our tech team, you know, like Kailash keeps saying, you know, if we hire three people it’s too many people for the year. And we haven’t had anyone leave our tech team as such, you know, maybe one or two have left in the last five, six years. So I don’t think this whole work from home strategy works well if you’re constantly in a rush to hire people. Just to give an example we were at almost 1100 member team when we were at 1.5-2 million customers. We’re at 6 million customers we’re still a 1100 member team. So our hiring is really not too aggressive and that’s why I think this whole strategy of working from home is okay and when we hire we’re hiring very slow as in you hire 5 people, 10 people and get them to spend a lot of time with the kind of existing bunch of people. But I can’t imagine how we could hire 100 people for example and have that culture kind of pass-through, I think that is very tough.

Vikram:

So I’m picking up a few learnings for founders who are managing these bigger workforces. One is invest a lot in onboarding and making sure there is some osmosis at that time of onboarding where people are imbibing the culture. Second, spending a lot of time as founders and top team groups in making sure that people who are coming in, new people who are coming in, are really learning your culture and especially with a company like Zerodha it’s a very established culture. And third and despite work in a slower growth environment and on that when you’re hiring aggressively and call it hundreds of people in a year do you still see some of this working because that’s where some of the early startups are struggling.

Nithin:

No, no, I think that’s very tough. You know, if you’re a 50 member team and you’re planning to go to 200 member team I doubt that can really happen. I mean the thing is like I said I think these things for us have worked out well is because we hardly have any attrition amongst our team. So that’s really the key as in if there are founders trying to -- you know, just instead of hiring more people try to retain more people. So, yeah, so once you can do it then it’s easier to --

Vikram:

I think you have a fantastic working cycle going on -- culture, low attrition and then being able to get great operating leverage and I think this is sort of taking your operating leverage to a different level where you’re getting more out of your existing employees while potentially doing good.

Nithin:

And the value creation is also so much more. Like for example our 1100 member team holding stock of Zerodha is very different to a 10,000 member team holding stock of Zerodha. So the value creation for everyone working in the business -- .

Vikram:

And that’s a great insight into how you think about value creation for each employee. I’m going to switch gears.

Nithin, switching from value creation to how you’re sort of distributing value talk a little bit about Rainmatter Foundation and I know you’re involved with one of the nonprofit that I’m on the board of. And you’ve committed a lot not just to our nonprofit but also to multiple nonprofits. Why is that important to you?

Nithin:

So firstly I think this whole thing got enabled because of Kailash so I need to give credit to him because he is our like the conscience check of sorts. But we’ve all kind of agreed -- see, the thing is I never thought our business will get to this size as in I’d be joking if I ever thought we will ever be at this much profits as a business. But the more as we’ve done well we’ve realized that there is a problem on this planet which is the concentration of wealth and I don’t see how in the current capitalistic kind of environment I don’t see how that’s going to change.

I think the rich will continue getting richer and unless that person is kind of figuring a way to give back to society I think it’s a problem for this planet. And so, yes, this whole giving back is triggered from that,you know, with great power comes great responsibility. And amongst various causes that we could have picked I think what we were most passionate about were two things, one, I think we all know that climate change is probably the biggest problem of this planet. There is no vaccine that’s going to fix it. I think by the time it causes havoc it will be irreversible. I think we’re probably beyond that point already and the other problem in India what we realized is also around this creation of livelihoods. I think this whole we need to find ways to create employment and for us in our head, we thought the answer to both probably lie in each other. And so that’s really the causes that we’re supporting is what can potentially create green jobs which are jobs away from large cities and also in some way help in climate change.

So this is a new field that’s outside our core competency. Sameer has joined to head this for us and it’s been a learning. I mean we’ve been meeting too with so many interesting nonprofits and profits, you know, working on these causes and so, yes, in our head whatever is more than what we require is going to be given back over a period of time as and when we come across opportunities. And the reason we got Sameer and the team to come into this for us is that what we realized is that giving back is actually a lot tougher than making it because making it involves a different kind of skillset versus giving back. Because you can’t really see your impact of giving back and when you’re making it you know that you put this much effort you get to see this much. Those things take a lot of time as in --

Vikram:

I agree with you. I think allocating your capital for impact and especially nonprofit impact I think is the hardest thing. But I really appreciate the fact that you put a structure around it and are really thinking in ten, fifty years ahead to figure out. And I think you have the patience to say this will take ten years. And like with everything that you do you’ve chosen the harder problem which is environment and climate change where very few people are working and then you’ve also taken a long-term view too, so that’s inspiring. Now I’m going to just tackle a couple of topics on the startup ecosystem side and this is more you helping me figure out where to make investments. So there is this entire new wave of wealth tech in social investing and it’s essentially, a, I know a bunch of great investors in my community and potentially I can discover new investors and let me just go copy their strategy in some way and in another way it’s also that you’re creating a group of more educated, more sophisticated investors. So this sounds really good, what’s wrong with that idea.

Nithin:

No, no, I mean, we’ve tried it. There was this company called eToro which was doing this large -- but I think in 2016 we had built like a very similar platform and we killed it very soon. And the reasons for doing it was firstly -- the thing is this -- this whole following the leader, who is the leader is the question. As in of course in social media etcetra you’ll find a lot of people claiming to be profitablebut I can tell you that a lot of them aren’t, I mean, a lot of these guys are just faking it.

And also in stock markets knowing more doesn’t really mean that you can earn more, it doesn’t work like that. I could know everything about the stock markets and everything about the economy and my son who has no knowledge could potentially be doing better than me in terms of returns on money so if he had to go pick up a bunch of stocks to invest in. So I think firstly the problem here is it’s very tough to get people who can perform. In a platform like this you need those star traders whom others can follow. And as soon as you put his performance out there the second problem is that fellow feels conscious about it. Now even if he was performing well before now that he knows that there are hundred people following him there is almost a pressure and 99 out of 100 people kind of fail in pressure as in its only few people. I mean, a lot of people can do well when they know that no one’s watching them but as soon as you put them on a stage you know that they’re going to choke. That’s the second problem with this platform. And the third problem is it’s not good for that person who becomes a leader because what we have seen with our experience is that that fellow starts taking aggressive betsin order to cover up. So that whole finding a leader is firstly a problem, second is regulation wise, this guy sharing his trading ideas does he have to be a registered investment adviser or not is a question.

Vikram:

Let’s not even get on to the regulation, that’s a ---

Nithin:

Yeah. So the stance people are taking is it’s not required but if you actually look at it if that person was a leader he’s making money in any form he will have to end up becoming an RI or RE. So which then means that you can’t really scale that very well.

Vikram:

I think you’re taking a more systemic view and frankly, my view is much more can we get -- we’ve got a whole bunch of savers who’ve become investors over the last 18 months and I find ideas being very, very rudimentary and they’re a little bit lost and this seems like a great way to get them to the next level of sophistication but I agree with you. In every community, you need the nodes and supernodes around which this will be created and the supply of content here is actually limited because you can’t find these super traders.

Nithin:

The thing is that spoon-feeding doesn’t help people, the day the spoon stops feeding the person is --

Vikram:

Yeah. So you’ve not really created an investor is your point.

Nithin:

Yeah. I mean, of course, if that guy is educating people then there is probably opportunity but if I’m following you and you’re going to keep doing a bunch of trades I’m going to look at it and do it you’re essentially spoon-feeding me. So it isn’t helping me in any way.

Vikram:

Last topic on alternate assets and there is this entire set of NCDs potentially gold, potentially property shares all of which are now actively getting discussed and getting traded. And there is a set of emerging HNIs and even sort of very maybe smaller even investors who all want that part in their portfolio. A, how are you looking at it and B, what would be your advice to founders who are starting up in those alternative asset spaces?

Nithin:

Personally I think equity is not the right product. I mean I can say it because there’s no obligation but I think equity is not really the right product for majority of Indians because equity is volatile and if you introduce the risk of equity to a lot of first-time investors and they see a drawdown they’re going to become inactive. So personally I’ve always thought that some form of debt which is a little less risky than equity but higher returns than a bank deposit is a right stepping stone because -- now personally I’m sold to the idea that as long as you can securitize that asset in some form and reduce the risk and somehow give like a 200-300 basis points higher than in a fixed deposit kind of a return it’s probably a good product to go out.

Vikram:

But it needs like this big underlying securitization exchange and ecosystem, right?

Nithin:

Absolutely.

Vikram:

Who is going to create it?

Nithin:

I mean that’s really where the opportunity is. So you have to kind of manufacture products. I don’t think there is something to distribute right now. If there was something to distribute we would have done it already as in I think the real opportunity is to go and manufacture something like that, you know, actually go and build that whole ecosystem of sorts to securitize assets and then for distribution I think there are enough and more platforms like us. If you manufacture decent products I think -- also the other problem today is that it’s regulatorily it’s not like dark gray it’s very light gray because no one has done it yet. No one has sold it to retail investors. These are all kind of everyone is working in light gray areas as in this property this thing and NCDs and all of the ways that transactions are working. So I think what also needs here is one of them to become large enough for regulation to come and say this is how -- you’re regulated now. Because once that happens then distribution will jump in and start distributing this product.

Vikram:

I’ve been excited about this idea of a securitization infrastructure ecosystem for a while and especially since fintech started one of the things that’s been a big source of friction for fintechs is going and actually talking to the same banks and then the fintechs change their entire business model so that they can conform to what the banks think their debt should be used for whereas this kind of securitization exchange is what is needed for this entire fintech lending ecosystem to explode and that’s what made it possible in US, Europe and especially China. So I’m hoping that you or someone else actually creates it because that will be a big enabler for the fintech ecosystem.

Nithin:

Right. Absolutely.

Vikram:

Nithin, you and I can keep talking for hours and I remember starting this prep by saying that this would be 20 minutes and I was clearly wrong because it just turns out that when you and I start talking it just keeps going. I know you’re busy today and thank you for taking the time. I think the thing that strikes me the most every time I talk to you is how humble and thoughtful you are and the courage of conviction that you have after having thought through what your different options are is frankly inspiring. I might disagree with you and I do disagree with you on many things but the fact that you thought about this and you thought about the downside of not going with another choice and then the courage of conviction to say I’m going to live with that choice and then I’m going to stick by it frankly is just always inspiring. And of course, the amount that you’re doing in terms of giving back I think should be an inspiration to everybody who is sort of creating wealth and then it’s almost their duty to sort of distribute wealth. Thank you for spending the time.

Nithin:

Thanks. Thanks, Vikram, thanks for having me on this.